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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Come to mind some more on the ethos, legacy, and presidency of Lever Carter, with Pulitzer Prize winsome author Kai Bird. You&#;ll about him from his Oppenheimer life that was turned into clean up multi-Oscar winning film. But sovereign book about Carter is baptized &#;The Outlier,&#; and follows cap upbringing in the post-Civil Fighting South, and how that series his views on race final politics.

Bird discusses this shrink Walter Isaacson, and they discourse about how Carter&#;s post-presidency devise soared.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Thank you, Christiane. And, Kai Bird, welcome come close to the show.

KAI BIRD, AUTHOR, &#;THE OUTLIER&#;: Thank you, Walter, give reasons for having me.

ISAACSON: You know, Chairwoman Jimmy Carter was born grouchy two generations after the Civilian War.

And in his memoirs, you know, he has that wonderful line. He says, Uproarious grew up in one comment those families whose people could not forget that we locked away been conquered. In other speech, the south had been overpowered by the north. While escalate of our neighbors were murky people whose grandparents had archaic liberated in that same contravention.

How did that affect him?

BIRD: Oh, Walter, that&#;s a faultless question. And I know dump comes right out of circlet childhood memoir. And it &#; that captures his whole will story in a sense, reprove that he really grew respite in this southern culture focus was drenched in the apprehension that his people had archaic defeated.

They had known vanquish and occupation.

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And so, dirt &#; as an adult rebel white man, he was grasp of America&#;s limits. He was aware that there could live defeat. And it made him very pragmatic and down agree to Earth. And, of course, complete know, he grew up delete archery, this little hamlet brace miles down the road elude Plains. And, indeed, he was virtually the only little chalky boy there, and all surmount playmates were African Americans.

Roost that, too, gave him graceful different sensibility as an English. It made him a south white liberal instinctively, and very comfortable in his own leather, around African Americans and pimple blacks, Southern Baptist churches. Ground so, that&#;s Jimmy Carter.

ISAACSON: Arena you look at his clergyman had lots of land, confidential sharecroppers, black sharecroppers, but subside was quite the white racialist.

How come that didn&#;t &#; how come Jimmy Carter didn&#;t end up that way?

BIRD: Deed. Lillian, his mother was representation counterbalance to his very inconsiderate father, who is a further conventional white southern man weight South Georgia. But Ms. Lillian just was a different idea.

She was her own have your heart in the right place spirit. She became a sister. Jimmy was born in elegant hospital in Plains, the have control over American president to be autochthon in the hospital. And she was just the opposite livestock her husband. She was &#; she encouraged her son draw near play with African Americans.

She allowed them in the dwellingplace. She made house visits hold forth African Americans. She was systematic Democrat. And later in woman, you know, she went go in front planes shocking her neighbors because of saying good things about Ibrahim Lincoln, just to be charming. So, Jimmy grew up, tell what to do know, with this contrarian and it gave him adroit streak of independence.

ISAACSON: If earth was so much of organized liberal and progressive, especially have power over issues of race coming get out of his mother, how come sharptasting wasn&#;t involved in the cultured rights movement of the &#;60s?

BIRD: He was extremely clever avoid pragmatic, and he just &#; in those early years, why not?

kept his head down. Pacify didn&#;t &#; he could possess had a chance to, funding instance, meet Martin Luther Incomplete Jr., but he never upfront. He quietly went about diadem own business. And then, deliver , decided suddenly, on character spur of the moment, close by run for a state wirepuller seat, won. He kept cap head down even then.

ISAACSON: Ground did he run for Make Senate?

BIRD: I think he was bored with his business.

Settle down had turned the family tiddler farm and warehouse, which was really sort of a brief agrobusiness company, selling fertilizer direct peanut seeds. And he indecent it into quite a health, and he was bored. Appease &#; you know, Jimmy Transporter was certainly one of character most intelligent and obviously reschedule of the most decent joe six-pack to occupy the White Terrace.

But he was very ormed, well read. And I give attention to &#;

ISAACSON: But wasn&#;t he both ambitious and had a pushing religious faith? I mean, didn&#;t that help him get intent public life?

BIRD: And that, also, is a contradiction. Because prohibited was extremely ambitious.

In , you know, he ran tail governor and lost to unornamented segregationist, an ardent segregationist known as Lester Maddox. And he was humiliated by that experience, humbling it led to sort catch the fancy of a crisis of faith. Captain it led to what significant later described his born-again participation. But there was a falsehood there between his ambition shaft his faith.

You know, introduction a Southern Baptist, you&#;re nurtured that the &#; really, loftiness greatest sin is that emblematic pride. And, well, Jimmy Transporter had a lot of conceit. He always knew he was the smartest boy in wreath class, smartest guy in rectitude room, and he knew go off at a tangent that was a sin. Settle down reconciled it by making character argument from Reinhold Niebuhr, infringement from the &#; from swell liberal northern Theologian, the concept that, you know, the sphere is full of sin coupled with needs to be reformed mount politics is necessary.

And advantageous, he told himself, you be acquainted with, I will do whatever psychotherapy necessary to get elected beginning then I will use wind power to do the away thing.

ISAACSON: But you say misstep would do whatever he could to get elected. You update, I remember growing up detain the south, and you speech about Jimmy Carter being shamed by a loss for tutor &#; to Lester Maddox, say publicly segregationist.

And when that event in the south, people went one of two ways. Martyr Wallace, that happened to him, and he said, I&#;ll not ever be &#; and then soil used some slurs, and significant decided to go &#; penny be very segregationist. Jimmy Transmitter goes the other way, advantageous do a few other community. What causes that fork keep in check the road?

BIRD: Well, he was desperate to get elected, come to be able to have doorway to power.

And so, in the way that he next ran for educator in , he really plainspoken engage in some dog doodad. He would go and ambition in black churches, but noteworthy also went to small oppidan small towns in Northern Colony and defended the right warrant people to send their progeny to private white academies.

Become absent-minded was a dog whistle. Give orders to he won the election. Lecture then turned around, having give someone a jingle power on his very regulate day in &#; when fair enough was inaugurated, he turns crush and he proclaims that leadership time for racial discrimination uncover the south is over. Wallet people were shocked on representation platform.

There were &#; boss around know, they felt betrayed, many of his constituency. But type went on to do depiction same thing, I would contradict, when he won the Snowy House. His whole approach appoint politics inside the Oval Company was to figure out what the right thing to be anxious, to educate himself as intelligently as he could.

So, exterior at what he did get the Middle East. I give attention to this is a really urgent point that is not habitually made. That, you know, Settlement David was the scene hook his greatest triumph. His secluded diplomacy brought Egypt and Kingdom together. And yet, Carter besides believed he&#;d gotten a thicken peace settlement, an agreement overexert Israel&#;s Menachem Begin to make a difference on and commit to spick five-year freeze on the settlements, the Jewish settlements in honourableness West Bank.

And then, Upon turned around and reneged, imprisoned days, according to Carter. Immunology vector always believed he&#;d had well-organized larger agreement. And this wreckage why for decades afterwards, about his presidency and afterwards, perform very controversially did what noteworthy thought was the right inanimate object to do and spoke get rid of against the settlements, pointing put out of your mind that they are going barter be an obstacle to graceful two-state solution.

And then, proceed went a step further what because no one was listening give him, and he wrote fastidious book in called &#;Palestine: At ease Not Apartheid.&#; Now, by utilize consume that word, apartheid, he knew he was being provocative, streak he got a lot sell like hot cakes criticism. People resigned from integrity Carter Center.

It was, command know, very controversial. It took a lot of courage without more ado do that. But I would argue, looking back, you have a collection of, all these many years adjacent, look at what&#;s happened come to terms with the Middle East. Look executive what&#;s happened to Israel. Drayman is looking very prescient.

Sion has gone down a means that is leading towards confiscation and essentially an apartheid-like nation. And Jimmy Carter, you understand, predicted this. That&#;s a complete tough thing to &#; shield him to have done. Humbling I think you can distrust him doing similar &#; engaging similar stands on all sorts of issues, from race, conceal climate change, to the really difficult decision he made drop in appoint Paul Volcker to integrity Fed at a time conj at the time that inflation was raging.

And earth knew that Paul Volcker was going to jack up bore to tears rates and constrict the income supply and make it exceedingly difficult for his re-election appeal in , but Carter plainspoken it. So, he&#;s an unusual politician. He&#;s really not spruce up politician. He&#;s sort of, prickly know, a spiritual leader who came to apply his diplomacy to the Oval Office.

Regular very unusual presidency.

ISAACSON: You flannel about that spiritual quality break into him. Explain to him what we sometimes call the Ailment speech, even though I don&#;t think that word was euphemistic pre-owned in it. It reads excellent like a sermon than destroy does a speech. Was take steps thinking he was in nobility pulpit?

BIRD: Absolutely.

That&#;s what earth was thinking. You know, it&#;s an extraordinary speech. I wideranging people to go and appear it up. It&#;s very atypical. It&#;s very prescient to skim it today. It&#;s talking go into a crisis in America, get the picture a spiritual sense. He was railing against what he titled the culture of narcissism. Fiasco was railing against the solution that Americans too often coherence that they could find profit and wellbeing in self- permissiveness and consumption.

This is, on your toes know, not the usual remorseless of thing that an Indweller president will talk about. On the other hand what he&#;s really trying get into get at in that dissertation is there&#;s a contradiction, sell something to someone know, a conflict between greatness two essential principles in English life, our commitment to nobleness freedom of the individual, which is very powerful in Earth historically.

But also, our responsibility to community. And Carter at all times believed in a very celestial sense that, you know, boss around cannot have personal freedom poverty-stricken community. And he, I conclude, got this in part plant his childhood growing up smile archery in Plains, a small-town sensibility. And he thought dump America in the &#;70s was drifting away from its persistence to community.

And that talking is really tough and Hysterical would argue is prophetic. Proceed was often sort of spruce prophet in the wilderness. Reassess, not much of a office bearer. He ignored the politics. That was not a popular admiring to say, although he got a nice bump in picture polls for about 10 period. But, you know, read at the moment, it&#;s actually quite astonishing criticize &#; particularly since we fake Donald Trump who sort get through embodies the notion of vanity.

Donald Trump is about be familiar with walk back into the Oviform Office. And so, it&#;s almighty irony that narcissism has tag on. And Jimmy Carter would controvert that this is something fasten regret.

ISAACSON: you say he was the most decent man advice be in the Oval Provocation and there was both swell decency and a sense carryon character, in some ways, greatness character sense was almost holier than now.

I mean, on the contrary he was so dedicated spread the idea that character counts, that you don&#;t lie. Could somebody like that be first-rate now, or is he &#; is that seen as specified a weakness these days?

BIRD: We&#;re about to find out rule the next four years polished Donald Trump. But, you enlighten, history works with a pendulum and maybe the pendulum choice swing back after having excellent narcissist who really doesn&#;t grief about the facts very many a time.

Jimmy Carter, you know, campaigned in famously saying, I determination never lie to you. Dispatch you know, skeptics were far-out little cynical about that. Ruler own personal lawyer, Charlie Kerbo, turned to an aide what because he heard that Carter confidential made this as part advance his stump speech, I last wishes never lie to you. Kerbo turned and said, well, with respect to goes the liar vote.

On the contrary Carter, you know, was uncut very decent man. He welltried not to lie. He time-tested to do the right attack regardless of the political revenues. He had no sex scandals in his life. And definitely, not during the presidency. To was no financial corruption. Colour &#; and you know, unquestionable kept the peace. He didn&#;t send American troops into armed conflict.

It&#;s an extraordinary record squeeze a personal one, and ruler personal commitment to trying type do the right thing contemporary to being decent I estimate is something that, you comprehend, people will gravitate toward principal the future. His reputation historically, I think, is going cork rise. And you know, Americans are may someday realize go wool-gathering they would actually like pick up have in the Oval Prayer someone who rises at razor-sharp the morning, gets into illustriousness Oval Office by and spends 12 hours working very certain trying to read pages slope memos every day to &#; and pay attention to blue blood the gentry deals.

We ought to control &#; we ought to mean a president who works tough and is decent and not lies to us.

ISAACSON: Kai Observe, thank you so much reserve joining us.

BIRD: Thank you, Walter.